""...we are increasing the amount of available capa..." - lighthope1

[grizzle]

@lighthope1 - Yes, they have been.  It's funny though, isn't it?  I've been forced to use HughesNet for years, and have complained for years, and have been told repeatedly there's nothing they can do. Nothing at all. But now that the Starlink open beta is about a month away, magically, mysterially, they find a way to double, triple, even quadruple bandwidth speed in a system that they previously claimed was absolutely impossible to improve.  Though I haven't seen any additional "normal speed" capacity before cap.  The future and new headache-free, inexpensive, and blazingly fast download AND upload speeds are just around the corner for all of us who depend upon satellite internet.

[GabeU]

There's nothing magical about it.  Because of the tremendous increase in system load as a result of the pandemic, they've likely released the remaining capacity they held in reserve to help as much as it possibly can.  

[MrBuster]

The phrase "we are increasing the amount of available capacity" means they put the thumb-screws down on the video data saver in the following ways:

• You could not turn the video data saver off (permanently)*
• The bandwidth per video stream/download to known recreational video sites was roughly cut in half

Before these measures, a video stream with the VDS turned on would be capped around 5.5Mbps in non-congested times, and about half that during prime time (perhaps depending on the beam).   The 5.5Mbps was a download peak, with a per stream peak for streaming being much lower.  So in the early morning hours you could watch 480p/720p if the large portions of the screen were not changing quickly or download roughly 2GB of video per hour.  And you could turn VDS off and watch in HD (again during off-peak time).  

After these measures, you were stuck with the VDS on and it was capped around half the normal rate for downloads so even during off-peak time with a comparably reduced peak for streaming you were not too likely to see 480p except with talking heads or a lot of buffering.  Again I suspect the exact level may have been dependent on which beam you are on.

They have since backed down these emergency measures (something they did a couple of months ago?), and you can turn VDS off again.

It is important to realize where this "extra capacity" came from, or some folks in control may come to believe nobody knows the difference and they will make these measures permanent to sell to more users and/or create wild pie-in-the-sky plans with crazy names like "Freedom" etc -- the result will turn a good service into a living nightmare.

*edit

[maratsade]

• You could not turn the video data saver off
• The bandwidth per video stream/download to known recreational video sites was roughly cut in half

Neither of these are accurate (certainly not the first one, as the VDS was never locked so it could not be turned off). Where are you getting this information?

[MrBuster]

---

@maratsade wrote:

• You could not turn the video data saver off (permanently)*
• The bandwidth per video stream/download to known recreational video sites was roughly cut in half

Neither of these are accurate (certainly not the first one, as the VDS was never locked so it could not be turned off). Where are you getting this information?

---

Although I could "turn off" the VDS from the screen, it was obvious from basic testing (or just watching the task manager) that it was still on at some level even in less busy times.  This may have been a measure dependent on beam, but when this went back to the way it was before a couple of months ago (with it actually being off) the difference was easy to see.

I vaguely remember someone else noticing this too, but I don't know what thread it was--perhaps they can chime in. 

Anyway, as video streaming is the big bandwidth pig, it is the common and obvious target ISPs go after to optimise work/productive things.  Many other ISPs use plans with a very tight data saver policy that can not be turned off -- with the pandemic measures, where is an ISP going to get extra bandwidth?  Based on what I could see from keeping data usage logs from every day, I maintain that it came by trimming back on what was available to the recreation video sites to make way for zoom/webex/teams/etc.

When you turned your VDS off during this time period, were you able to download a video at a higher rate or watch HD without buffering?  Do you have any information regarding where the extra bandwidth came from?   The following phrase strongly implies giving priority to critical sites, which means reducing priority to non-critical sites:

"To help people working from home, we have optimized Cloud-based business applications. We have also optimized online educational apps, and are working with teachers to identify the websites and learning tools on which they depend."

They even asked for users to report sites they were having trouble with.  As for me, I could see WebEx and Teams seemed to be operating in spectacular fashion while at the same time YouTube was pinched.

*edit

[maratsade]

I hope @Liz will be kind enough to clear up the VDS misinformation; it's likely issues were encountered due to congestion, traffic, and latency. 

I think you're speculating baselessly regarding optimisation of streaming providers, but I doubt the mods will address this one, so it will remain speculative, and issues can also be chalked up to congestion, traffic, and latency. 

[Liz]

Hi folks, while the Video Data Saver can still be toggled on and off, our efficiency protocols currently limit the permanent snooze option, so we recommend temporarily snoozing VDS only when you are actively watching High Definition video or use a service that does not support adaptive streaming.

Thanks for your understanding.

-Liz

[MrBuster]

---

@Liz wrote:

Hi folks, while the Video Data Saver can still be toggled on and off, our efficiency protocols currently limit the permanent snooze option, so we recommend temporarily snoozing VDS only when you are actively watching High Definition video or use a service that does not support adaptive streaming.

Thanks for your understanding.

-Liz

---

Thank you -- very helpful information here.  Is this limit on the permanent snooze option of the VDS still in effect?  It seems like it is staying off now.  The efficiency protocols seemed to greatly improve productivity sites like Webex/teams vs. YouTube -- I hope my assumption that this was intentional was not inaccurate.

[maratsade]

Cheers, @Liz . Glad to see that I was right regarding  the accuracy of the statement "You could not turn the video data saver off." It wasn't completely inaccurate, just misleading, as you can turn it off but not leave it off. 

---

@Liz wrote:

Hi folks, while the Video Data Saver can still be toggled on and off, our efficiency protocols currently limit the permanent snooze option, so we recommend temporarily snoozing VDS only when you are actively watching High Definition video or use a service that does not support adaptive streaming.

Thanks for your understanding.

-Liz

---

[maratsade]

And yet those optimised sites may not work for everyone. I can't use Zoom or Teams, and have had no problems at all with YouTube.  There's more to this than optimisation. Traffic and internet congestion play a very large role, optimisation or no.  Generalising is not helpful when there are so many variables. 

---

@MrBuster wrote:

---

"To help people working from home, we have optimized Cloud-based business applications. We have also optimized online educational apps, and are working with teachers to identify the websites and learning tools on which they depend."

They even asked for users to report sites they were having trouble with.  As for me, I could see WebEx and Teams seemed to be operating in spectacular fashion while at the same time YouTube was pinched.

---

[MrBuster]

---

@maratsade wrote:

And yet those optimised sites may not work for everyone. I can't use Zoom or Teams, and have had no problems at all with YouTube.  There's more to this than optimisation. Traffic and internet congestion play a very large role, optimisation or no.  Generalising is not helpful when there are so many variables. 

Yes, certainly traffic and congestion plays a role.   Before the changes, I would dread doing a meeting from 7pm to 9pm because it would be painful and I had a batch in January that were as expected.  Now, Teams seems to work so good it is almost as if someone has some serious voodoo going on.  I just hoped off one just a minute ago, and it was fast and smooth.  Maybe they can do something to adjust what you are seeing?  

@Liz 

Any information about how long the permanent snooze lasts now, or has this now been reverted for the last two months?   I say this because my VDS does not seems to have turned back on by itself, and is staying off like it did before.   I don't watch a lot of videos and when I do, I prefer to adjust the data rate from the video site, so I normally only turn it on when the kids with the menagerie of devices come.

[maratsade]

"Before the changes, I would dread doing a meeting from 7pm to 9pm because it would be painful and I had a batch in January that were as expected.  Now, Teams seems to work so good it is almost as if someone has some serious voodoo going on.  I just hoped off one just a minute ago, and it was fast and smooth.  Maybe they can do something to adjust what you are seeing?  "

I had fewer problems before with Teams, etc.. The optimisation worked in reverse for me.  I find workarounds, though, such as phoning into Zoom meetings.

[grizzle]

In terms of VDS, starting around April and up until a couple weeks ago, toggling off VDS was not permanent.  You could toggle it off at any point through the day, and it would remain off, until midnight, at which point it would reset and turn itself back on.  I had to turn it off each day.

It does seem however that within the past couple weeks this change was reverted back to its old functionality - I toggled it off and it hasn't reset itself again yet.

In terms of Teams, Zoom, and media streaming, I have found everything works best when running through a VPN.  Without the VPN, I have had some services, websites, and apps that would take extremely long times to load, or simply timeout.  Upload speeds when trying to share out files were non-existent, and again many times timeout. Once I began using a VPN, speeds seemed to balance out and "work better" - at least on my two computers. Unfortunately all my other home devices cannot run through VPN, so continue to be excessively slow or non-functional due to timeouts.

[MrBuster]

---

@grizzle wrote:

In terms of VDS, starting around April and up until a couple weeks ago, toggling off VDS was not permanent.  You could toggle it off at any point through the day, and it would remain off, until midnight, at which point it would reset and turn itself back on.  I had to turn it off each day.

It does seem however that within the past couple weeks this change was reverted back to its old functionality - I toggled it off and it hasn't reset itself again yet.

In terms of Teams, Zoom, and media streaming, I have found everything works best when running through a VPN.  Without the VPN, I have had some services, websites, and apps that would take extremely long times to load, or simply timeout.  Upload speeds when trying to share out files were non-existent, and again many times timeout. Once I began using a VPN, speeds seemed to balance out and "work better" - at least on my two computers. Unfortunately all my other home devices cannot run through VPN, so continue to be excessively slow or non-functional due to timeouts.

---

I think you may have it!   The information about when the VDS was switching back on is insightful -- I don't normally go in and deactivate the VDS every day.  When the menagerie leave, I turn it off and noticed it was on again based on normal observation and figured it was related to the pandemic measures based on the posted notice.  Although I don't use VPN everytime, I often do when I am on a Webex/Teams so this might be the key.

@maratsade Could you try a VPN and see if your Teams works better?  If this is true then this will be a very welcome solution.  I often assume the VPN just slows things down as it does noticeably reduce overall bandwidth.

Thanks!

[maratsade]

VPNs are iffy with satellite internet and don't work for everyone.  Also, i'm fine with Teams or Zoom not working, as they eat up a lot of my data. 🙂

[MarkJFine]

FYI - The speed issues with VPNs are:
1. The security protocols required can't be used in conjunction with the TCP/Web Acceleration techniques being used, so everything basically works at the uncompressed channel rate.

2. There's a lot of handshaking going on, so take your normal 600mS ping rate and basically multiply it for each packet.

As usual, the severity of how slow it can be is generally geometrically proportional to the level of congestion. If you want to get an idea of just how slow and irregular it can be, ssh into a server and try to type commands... it becomes predictive typing waiting for the echo after a while. lol

[grizzle]

I think you misunderstood my comment about using VPN.  I said using VPN worked better than without, not the other way around.

The reason for this is that the throttling HughesNet imposes based upon sites and content is circumvented when using a VPN.

[maratsade]

I think we did understand; it's just that VPNs don't work well for satellite internet, even though they may work for some people (as you demonstrate).  For other people, VPNs slow down the network and don't work well. 

Not sure what you mean with "the throttling HughesNet imposes based upon sites and content."  HN does not throttle sites and content; they throttle speeds when users have used up their data allowance. EDIT: they also conduct network optimisation to improve user experience (though this is subject to congestion and internet latency), and while network optimisation practices are not revealed by the company, throttling is not one of them (except of data when the user has exceeded allowance). 

---

@grizzle wrote:

I think you misunderstood my comment about using VPN.  I said using VPN worked better than without, not the other way around.

The reason for this is that the throttling HughesNet imposes based upon sites and content is circumvented when using a VPN.

---

[MrBuster]

Ideally, it would be best to have various users on different beams to try out Teams with VPN and Teams without VPN.  I am pretty sure I have been using Teams and Webex both ways, and it seems good both ways but trying under conditions of some congestion would be good to see if this is a factor.  I have been pretty busy today, and with ping times flat lined near minimum for satellite until after 9am and staying insanely low until after 3:30pm, I don't think I have had a fair chance of seeing any congestion yet for a fair test.  It operated great today, but today was unusually fast judging by the numbers I am looking at.

MarkJFine does have a good point.  I have noticed that uploading to an FTP with the VPN can be painful, and fast if I kill the VPN.  The reasons he mentioned are spot on.

Anyway, the "throttling" of video is through the VDS, and I am pretty confident of the following speculation regarding the HughesNet optimization strategies*:

• Turning off the VDS (when it stays off 😉 eliminates all evidence of throttling
• VDS does not appear to throttle productivity sites -- at least the ones I see. 
• That request they put out asking for user input about work/education related sites they are having trouble with would imply they are intending to give these sites extra priority -- throttling them would be very counter productive to the entire purpose of the effort.  After all, they are not putting all this is place to roll out a bunch of new plans with crazy limits and glowing names, right?

*edit

[maratsade]

You are again speculating without any hard data -- since HN does not reveal their optimisation strategies, all you are doing is guessing without any real data to support what amounts to basically an opinion. Not criticising you; you can speculate all you want, but it's nothing more than guesswork. 

[MrBuster]

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@maratsade wrote:

You are again speculating without any hard data -- since HN does not reveal their optimisation strategies, all you are doing is guessing without any real data to support what amounts to basically an opinion. Not criticising you; you can speculate all you want, but it's nothing more than guesswork. 

---

Sure speculation and guess work -- I am sorry the wording was not clear.  I do not intend to mislead anyone and I hoped the usage of words like 'appears' would express that.  Some routers can show you detailed data usage per device.

So with router logs for every day's activities saved, I can see how much data a device pulled and when it pulled it, how fast it pulled it and the general latency in ms associated with the activity.  If I may be so bold as to offer some speculation, it appears that VDS does limit the amount of data that a single device can pull from obvious recreational video sites, and that there is an increase in latency associated with the operation for some reason which may just be coincidence, but when I see that line go up when a device is pulling data and that the line for data amount looks suspiciously like it is leveled off and fairly constant, I just sort of assume "whew -- good thing that VDS is on!"  

If I turn off the VDS, the device appears to pull data faster, and the latency numbers drop back down.  The device also appears to consume more of my data as many streaming sites seem to jump to a higher resolution, but my eyes are pretty bad.  Leaving the VDS off when the crew comes through, even for a brief time, and I usually see several GB disappear to some silly android phone.  Of course I do not mean to imply I am sure of this.  

It appears the VDS does what the name implies, as I think GabeU had some Fast.com results that showed results comparing data rates with the VDS on/off, but maybe he can clarify.  Just by glancing at a graph I feel like I have a pretty good idea if my niece or her family is downloading a video from some site (maybe Netflix?), or streaming from someplace, and I just kind-of/sort-of guess at if the VDS is on or not without actually looking.  I do not mean to imply that this is anything other than speculation.

Regarding the interpretation of the policy they posted, sure I could be very mistaken -- probably wrong.  I just can't imagine why they would ask users to identify the sites they need improved if they did not want to do something to improve them.  But then I am not very imaginative.